Which Computer Forensics Courses are the best?

[Disklabs]

Time after time, I hear the name of Cranfield, (Royal Military College of Science at Cranfield), where the guru Prof Tony Sams resides as being the best in the world, but this year, hot on the tails has been Glamorgan University.

I have heard not so good things about other university's, but dont think its right to publish that information here?

Has any one else got any thoughts on which are the best, (and worst), university's?

Simon

[danlewis88]

I Applied to do computer forensics at Glamorgan Uni. I also went to see forensic computing in newport, but it looked quite poor compared to glamorgan.


Dan

[Disklabs]

Dan,

Apart from Cranfield , (Royal Military College of Science), University, I am very much led to believe that Glamorgan is one of the best at the moment. I have not heard much about Newports course.

Has anyone else got views of other University courses?

Simon

[kern]

Hi,

re other Uni's , i've heard bad feedback about one particularly, that some of the course isn't particularly well run, and neither some of the material, shared with other semi-similar courses, particularly relevant. Of course it could be put down to whinging students, and would be unfair of me to name the establishment.

It maybe just highlights the reality that prospective students should scrutinise carefully the syllabi offered by more than just one uni and compare.

kern

[Disklabs]

Kern,

Do you think its right to name and sham these universities? I used to employ someone from a certain university who had a Masters degree in Computer Forensics. It so happened that he was trying to get his course fees returned as he said that the course had no relevance to computer forensics! He said he had a masters degree in Computers and touched on Computer Forensics, however, his certificate stated that he has a Computer Forensics Masters.

Your thoughts,

Simon

[kern]

Simon: i'll reply in prv for the particular uni, but yes, name and shame had come to mind.

from anecdotal evidence, i think now that all a degree states is that you reached a required level of academic excellence, but, only in the set course.

it really winds me up that the Govt, say at A level standard, think the IQ level of kids has rocketted. 10+ A levels and guys cant do basic arithmetic / reading / writing on entry to industry. its appalling. Similar seems to be happening in devalued F/HE quals.

The only thing that Degree, or whatever now, states, is that you passed that specific course. The relevance of that course to the applied job could be minimal.

thats not to decry some excellent courses created by course leaders who are very well switched on.

However, my degree is non associated (1995 B.Eng Hons) and a student qualled in B.Sc Comp going through M.Sc Forens Comp seemed to think i'd actually breeze the course.
(I doubt ! lol - im sh*te at programming). Its just that digging for data, and so on, really turns my cogs, i'm essentially a nosey git with tech experience :)

Its a shame experiential recognition isn't given these days. ie an from an Apprenticeship, yay, anyone remember those ?

eeeh, best get off me soapbox.

kern

[diablodaz]

Hi, I am going to take up a Bsc Degree in Forensic Computing and do prity much everyone agree that Glamorgan Uni is the best, also could anyone give any info on Staffordshire as they have an international program similar to that of the abroad option that Glamorgan delivers.

After that when I can get some work I may try to a MSc/PgDip/PgCert course at Cranfield

Daz

[tootypegs]

Well......... I'm currently on work placement and I am studying Computer Forensics at Northumbria University. It seems like a decent course, could have some improvements made to the course looking back but thought it was worth a mention

[qwerty]

Well......... I'm currently on work placement and I am studying Computer Forensics at Northumbria University. It seems like a decent course, could have some improvements made to the course looking back but thought it was worth a mention

Who's this then?

[Disklabs]

I have just got back from Guest Lecturing at Derby University.

I have to say that I am really impressed with what I saw and heard.

I have not heard of this before: The senior lecturer has said that he is interested in hearing what happens out there in the real world!:eek:

This REALLY impressed me.

Unlike most of the University's, Derby have very much decided that working with industry is the way to go. I mentioned during my lecture that I dont take on student placements as they cost me too much. Its like most things in life. Academic knowledge is great, but it hardly matters that much. What matters is that I have students coming to me that can hit the floor running. I dont want to have to spend thousands on Encase Training courses, the same for Access Data's Forensic Tool Kit training courses. Very nice it is to have all this background knowledge, but its somewhat more practical to have the FTK and Encase courses behind you first, then a degree.

Harj, who is running this course has also tied in his legal department to go through court room exercises with his students too - again, this is really useful real life skills teaching, which, as far as I am aware is not common.

I dont want to sound too biased, but from what I have heard, this course sounds seriously top notch. The proof of course will be in 2/3 years when the first courses qualify, (hopefully). If the students match up to the course, then these students over and above all the other graduates should be the first ones picked up for employment.

Derby University Computer Forensics Course (http://www.derby.ac.uk/computing/courses/msc-forensic)

Has anyone got any other University's courses that deserve a plug?

Simon

[kenilworthhammer]

Hi I lecture part time on the above - it is very much more about investigation which is what my background was in. There is a Compter Forensics module which I lecture on but that was as result of my being an Alpha/Beta Tester,C-Tech support technition for Corel graphics company of Canada and generally having been a geek. Was a long time colleague of Russ May who set up the Hi Tech Crime Unit in West Midlands but who now works for Guidance software (wh prodce Encase) as Senior Director International Sales, Training and Marketing at AccessData Corp, Past Senior Forensic Consultant at Guidance Software Inc
The intention is not to equip students as forensic recoveres etc but understnd where the whole spectrum of electronic media fits intoinvestigation etc. as a result gues expert speakers deal with Networks, West Midlands Police (my former employer) High Tech Crime Unit do sessions on forensic recovery, case studies and relevence of data to investigations. Other "experts" are bought in tolcture on specialist areas.
Its the seond year of the course presently running and whilst in the Police I was Consultant regarding curriculum etc

[Disklabs]

Kennilworthhammer,

Thanks for your comments.

I think that unless the students have a realistic expectation, then they are on a hiding for nothing. I am quite blunt about this when I lecture. If you have a student who doesnt think they will be able to handle Indecent Images, then if they are expecting to get a job at a police station, why spend 3 years if you are only going to look at mainly these type of images?

Financial expectation are not great either? Most of the students told me that they were expecting around ?30K when they finished their course. I told them that this wasnt the case at my company. I did explain that there was silly amounts of money out there, but it nearly always involved moving to London, so pro-rata, the fees are often not they would expect.

These are, I think, important things that need to be explained to the students so that they dont expect what isnt out there. I also think that without Encase or FTK training, the student is wasting his/her time, as its the nuts of what we do.

Regards,

Simon

[kern]

simon, is it looking like there are two distinct camps in forensics employment now?

#1: Private sector.

Companies have to survive by generating revenue.
Therefore employees initially need resellable skills and as such need to qualify in Encase/FTK/so-on. With a reasonably sound background in computing,these are the keys to employment.

#2: Public sector
LawEnf. etc. Govt funded. Work done has not the same direct link to revenue.
More background (computing/forensic/legal) knowledge is needed to respond to a wider range of events. Skill required in Enc/FTK as above, but priority on core knowledge of systems, structures, legal procedures etc.

Common Misapprehension?

Students pick up the idea that they get 3yrs of forensic course &or masters and they can slot into Private Sector on a high-ish wage, and will significantly avoid bench work. Is this *not* so, as without Encase/FTK quals they have little in the way of direct revenue generating skills.

-
Misinformation?

Masters students being told that they will be pursuing/able to fulfil management jobs, (hence 25-30k) in a forensics environment?

BSc students being told that they will slot nicely into companies that require digital forensic workers. No accredited qualification in Enc/FTK, just an intro on how they work.
-

Are Uni's in touch with the reality of what a student needs to gain for him/her to be in with a real chance of employment, and to what level they should expect to enter? or is it mainly a case of get bums on seats as a means of revenue for the Uni. Let the student make up the slack to get a job.

What are your thoughts about whats available to your company in the form of prospective employees / students coming out of uni brandishing a roll of paper with BSc Forensic imprinted on it?

There seem to be more and more disillusioned students these days.

Kern

[Disklabs]

Nice points Kern (again).

In my opinion, there are few universities that I would give much credence too. Those that are pro-active are the best ones. I like Derby's attitude - 'we dont know everything, so we will get the people who are actually practising and running businesses to help us'. I like the fact that Glamorgan has a good reputation, (from a technical side), Shrivenham, (Royal Military College of Science at Cranfield), has the oldest and best technical based course. Apart from that, I dont know of any other decent courses.

All the practising investigators in this arena who have years of experience are all doing their masters at Cranfield, so this must be the best one. This of course contradicts what I have perviously said in that they dont teach Encase or FTK. My defence is that they only take on practising analyst/investigators.

I believe that most students are unfortunately being sold up the river, some are very much being 'suckered in', some however are falling for the 'perceived romance' of a very interesting career.

I think that its forums like this that will hopefully let students to be get a grip on what is really out there?

Good luck to them all anyway!

Regards,

Simon

[qwerty]

Are students from lesser well known (or rather ones with low reputation when it comes to Computer Forensics) Universities going to struggle to find work post-graduation?. I ask because I am currently in my third year of a 4 year course at Northumbria University. For the majority of last year I was contacting CF companies such as yourself (disklabs) asking for a placement and nine times out of ten I didn't get a reply. Now this could be for a variety of reasons such as they don't do placements but I'm wondering if it is because of where I currently study my degree. Slighty unfair if that's the case as they are the only education authority that provide a CF course in my area (North East). I'm wondering if a Northumbria student would even get considered if they were up against someone from the likes of Cranfield of Glamorgan for a job position. Out of interest, if a student from Northumbria achieved a first overall, and went up against a 2:1 or a third from a "well known/respected" Uni, who would you employ?.

[Disklabs]

qwerty,

Its not necessarily because of the university. The fact that you have done A 4 year course makes it sound to me like you are reasonably dedicated, so thats in your favour. The ones that dont do too well are the ones that offer a masters in computer forensics to be completed in a single year.

The reason that you dont get responses to your request for placements is simply because of the quantities of requests that we get. During peak times of the year, I suggest that we probably get around 10 - 20 a day. Its too much to deal with. Take also into consideration that the candidate will also want paying, (?15 - 30K - I kid you not!) then they will need training, (?5K approx in courses, accommodation, travel etc), and all this is before they can actually work on a job and do something productive for us.

I think that a lot of Uni's have jumped on the bandwagon of an interesting subject. I must wonder how many of them have actually had any experience in the field of this subject though?

I have been working with Derby Uni, and although Harj, (who runs the course), has no experience in the field, he is seeking advice from experts, (and Me)!!!

I hope this clears this up, but feel free to post if you have any more questions.

On another point, try a company in Scotland called Integrity Forensics, I know its not too close, but they may be able to help?

Regards,

Simon

[qwerty]

I understand why not all companies (can) take on placement students. Asking for ?30,000 is a bit much though;). Some of the companies I did ask said to contact them after my degree however (if I can get there). I always thought a masters was a better qualification as they are studied post-grad.

Whilst I understand showing that I completed a 4 year course proves my determination to get things done, there is always a chance of me getting a low degree as my score overall will be based upon the work over the past 4 years and not just the work I did on Computer Forensics. I could be a 'whizz kid' at CF but struggle at everything else and will be left with trying to get a job with something like a 2:2 or a third.

What I didn't know when I started my degree was that it was the first time a course like that had been run at that University. We were "promised" placements as there were links in place with companies that deal with CF but not one of those mentioned by the staff took one single student on. I don't think any of the staff have vast years of experience in the field and the only real knowledge I know of that they have in the field is through courses run by the likes of Guidance Software and Access Data (which they passed with Distinctions). However, I am quite pleased with what I've learnt so far.

[qwerty]

One final thing. The training courses I mentioned in my previous post - are they the sort of training you would send a recently recruited employee on? just its hard to get on them without being sponsored due to their price.

[kern]

qwerty,

i can't speak as an employer, but, if you consider that a prospective employer may need to spend ?3k+ to put a guy thro Enc or FTK you may see why quite a lot aren't willing. The skill stays with the operator and as such if you leave, so does the companies investment in you.
Maybe Simon will pop by and fill in from a first hand point of view.
Kern

[Disklabs]

Kern,

You have again hit it right on the spot.

The investment is paid for by the company, but unfortunately these days, there doesnt seem to be much in the way of loyalty. Some employees will do the minimum amount of time that they legally have to after completing training then leave the company with those new qualifications.

I know it sounds cynical, but its a true reflection of how business works.

I also know some places that have stopped all training because people were going for jobs with these companies just for the training then leaving!

I hope this gives you a small understanding of the problems we face as an employer?!

Regards,

Simon

[keanaz]

or for its full title:

John Moores Uni - Liverpool.
I attended and spoke about Network Forensics at thier conference back earlier this year:

2nd Conference on Advances in Computer Security and Forensics (ACSF 2007) held at Liverpool John Moores University in July 2007.

They have a great dedicated team

[Disklabs]

Keanaz,

Thanks for that. I get a bit fed up with the fact that there are a few 'not so good' universities out there, so to hear about a good university is excellant news. I am also a fan of Universities getting in experts from industry as I am sure this is really good for the students and also the lecturers.

Simon

[Timmy_d]

hi lads new to this forum,
im surprised no one has mentioned or maybe not heard of the MSc in forensic informatics(only been running 2 years) course in strathclyde uni in glasgow,i have recently heard great reviews of the course and they offer a 3 month work placement on the 1 year masters course...now im thinking of applying to do an MSc for 2010(bit off i know but want to be making the right decision),when i spoke to the lecturer on the phone last week he said all bar 1 student(out of 12) had managed to secure work placement,he also mentioned that they work very closely with local police forces and the like,he said everyone got jobs in forensics after it(didnt get the names of the companys yet,but i will!

http://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~if/forensicInformatics/

would someone care to take a quick look at the sylabus and give an opinion on what they think as i also dont want to be led down the garden path...

[neontube]

Dear All,

I?m currently studying on the MSc forensic computing course at derby (part time); So far I?m impressed.

I have no benchmark to compare the course against the same/similar course at other universities. I can say how ever that the inclusion of lectures from people out in the real world (Big thanks to Simon) and even a visit to a company doing this work (Thanks once more to Simon) has been a real eye opener to the world of computer forensics.

This inclusion of ?real world? in the course is somewhat of an improvement over my undergraduate course that I studied back in ?98 and after finally graduating in 2002. The only skills I felt had been any use were the ?real world? stuff that I gained on a year?s placement. This mainly due to outdated course materials etc.

The inclusion of other areas in the derby course have / will also help, including research skills and the law elements, and it is these aspects of the course that I have applied to my day job (network support for schools at LEA level).

So all in all? I would recommend derby.

And Many thanks for the time Simon and other industry representatives have taken out to include there experiences in the course.

Dave Martin

[Cybergirl]

Hi there

I just wondered if any one has done the above course (see www.cce-uk.net).
Is it well thought of in the industry (in the UK).

Also does anybody have an opinion on Portsmouth University's digital forensics courses - they do a BSc top up and and MSC.

Thanks in advance

Cybergirl

[Disklabs]

Dear All,

I?m currently studying on the MSc forensic computing course at derby (part time); So far I?m impressed.

I have no benchmark to compare the course against the same/similar course at other universities. I can say how ever that the inclusion of lectures from people out in the real world (Big thanks to Simon) and even a visit to a company doing this work (Thanks once more to Simon) has been a real eye opener to the world of computer forensics.

This inclusion of ?real world? in the course is somewhat of an improvement over my undergraduate course that I studied back in ?98 and after finally graduating in 2002. The only skills I felt had been any use were the ?real world? stuff that I gained on a year?s placement. This mainly due to outdated course materials etc.

The inclusion of other areas in the derby course have / will also help, including research skills and the law elements, and it is these aspects of the course that I have applied to my day job (network support for schools at LEA level).

So all in all? I would recommend derby.

And Many thanks for the time Simon and other industry representatives have taken out to include there experiences in the course.

Dave Martin

NeonTube,

Kind words - obviously correct, especially about me!!! LOL

On a serious note, again, thanks,

Simon

[Timmy_d]

hi lads new to this forum,

*BUMP*

im surprised no one has mentioned or maybe not heard of the MSc in forensic informatics(only been running 2 years) course in strathclyde uni in glasgow,i have recently heard great reviews of the course and they offer a 3 month work placement on the 1 year masters course...now im thinking of applying to do an MSc for 2010(bit off i know but want to be making the right decision),when i spoke to the lecturer on the phone last week he said all bar 1 student(out of 12) had managed to secure work placement,he also mentioned that they work very closely with local police forces and the like,he said everyone got jobs in forensics after it(didnt get the names of the companys yet,but i will!

http://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~if...icInformatics/

would someone care to take a quick look at the sylabus and give an opinion on what they think as i also dont want to be led down the garden path...

[Disklabs]

Timmy_d,

The link isnt working?

Simon

[Timmy_d]

http://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~if/forensicInformatics/

Try now?

[Timmy_d]

http://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~if/forensicInformatics/

Try now?

Bump!!
Id love if someone could have a look at this for me!

[Disklabs]

Timmy,

I am a little unsure of the title to start? Why informatics?

I have now found a lack of thw words Encase and FTK in the course outline. I also note that the noteworthy books are written by Prof Tony Sammes and Prof Brian Jenkinson, both of the Royal Military College of Science at Cranfield.

As an employer, I wouldnt be overly impressed with a degree in Computer Informatics. I would however be impressed with a degree in Computer Forensics, (I would ALWAYS ask for Encase and FTK) seperately.

Sorry to be quite negative, but I am a big fan of honesty!

Regards,

Simon

[kern]

Neon:
took a look at the syllabus.
Looks like they are selling a qual in giving ppl advice on how to set up and do the job. i cant see anywhere where you will actually be doing the job.
Maybe a bit like doing a gardening advisory course and coming out with clean fingernails.

cybergirl, the cce course has ppl both for and against it, and its covered aplenty in other forums so i wont repeat here.
For me it was an initiative test in how to contact them as when i applied the website forms didn't work. i mailed the parent co to explain forms weren't working, and why (lack of CGI script from an "off the shelf" website template) and was met with an automated response. Not from the email i sent , but from the american site for passing the multi choice test. Not exactly endearing is it?

one thing to look for is this: compatibility with what employers expect.

For any academic course that offers a bit of paper at the end, an employer won't give a hoot if it can't earn his/her company some return on investment. Approach Employers first and say "i need a job with you, how best can i qualify to get that job".

Too many courses i hear of are applying the theory that if you've taken a high level academic course, you will walk into a management job. Reality check: you will be sat at a bench turning the handle on Accessdata, Encase etc until you prove your worth.

sorry for the seemingly vitriolic tone, but i really sicken of the paper peddlars these days whether its digital forensics, a 3 weeks Masters course in Reiki, or an offer of a Dan grade jujitsu cert in exchange for money from a person that you will probably never meet, let alone be examined by.

/rant off

Kern

[Disklabs]

Kern,

Great words there from a wise man.

I agree with all that you said, and for once its nice knowing that its coming from someone in the field rather than from myself.

Keep on ranting Kern and maybe, some readers of this forum will 'get it' and then stop being 'bullied' by universities into thinking that they are worth a lot more than they actually are?

Regards,

Simon

[Timmy_d]

Hi disklabs,do u have any more info on the MSc in derby,what modules are covered?

[qwerty]

Hi disklabs,do u have any more info on the MSc in derby,what modules are covered?

You'd be best of contacting the course teaching team directly to find out that sort of information and any other information you require.

[Timmy_d]

Hi guys,

MSc Computer Informatics-Strathclyde Uni
MSc Computer forensics-Glamorgan Uni
MSc Computer forensics & Security-Derby Uni
MSc Computer forensics-Cranfield

Out of the above masters courses in CF which one do ye reckon would be best for career prospects,its just so darn hard to narrow it down and have not spoken to anyone who has done any of the courses...i know disklabs has had good things to say about derby but i cant seem to get a hold of the course director (harjinder lallie)...anyone else done any of the above,thanks guys

[Minesh]

Hi Timmy,

In the same position myself, after considering the other options, i'm back to the MSc idea.

Anyway, Cranfield seems to be #1, followed by Glamorgan and then possibly Strathclyde.

On a totally seperate note, Open University is slightly appealing to me, although it's not started yet, so I wouldnt consider it until there's feedback. I have heard a number of Industry professionals have helped developed it though.

Minesh

[Disklabs]

Without question, the best respected course is Cranfield, however, you have to be a practising forensic analyst before hand. Of the others, Derby is superb, (there should be a breakdown of the course coming soon), Glamorgan is good, (I have had no interaction with Glamorgan), I know nothing about Strathclyde.

I have recently had meetings with Birmingham City university, (formerly University Central England), that sounds promising - I suggested to them as I did to Derby, that their respective courses should include a formal Encase qualification, and FTK, and Bond Solon, (courtroom training skills), to ensure that their grads are ready for the real world!

I hope the above helps?

Simon

[Minesh]

Is the Birmingham City University course going to be a BSc or MSc? I graduated from their Technology Innovation Centre so could be a possibility for me if it's an MSc... although, would have to let it run for a while in order to get feedback.

Ideally I would like to attend Cranfield, but put off by the fact that it's part time, and 3 years. Didn't realise that you'd need to be practising beforehand though.

[Timmy_d]

i see,some useful advice thanks disklabs...im going over to glamorgan on the 10th April for the MSc open day so will see what its like...pity about cranfield though...strathclyde seems to be well good too with the majority of grads getting jobs after the course(was talking to 2 guys yesterday who did it) they only had good things to say about it...may go over to derby for open day too if they have one coming up soon must check website...

[Timmy_d]

No mention of having to be practising in the area for entry requirements on prospectus,"normally a 1st or 2nd class honours degree OR professional equivalent in appropriate area" may have changed i will ring them though...

[qwerty]

I have recently had meetings with Birmingham City university, (formerly University Central England), that sounds promising - I suggested to them as I did to Derby, that their respective courses should include a formal Encase qualification, and FTK, and Bond Solon, (courtroom training skills), to ensure that their grads are ready for the real world!

I hope the above helps?

Simon

If only someone like you had convinced Northumbria that that is how a course should be run:(

[qwerty]

It looks like my Computer Forensic days are over. Was supposed to graduate in the summer but things just aren't working out. Have already failed two exams this year, failing any exam is bad enough, but unthinkable in the final year. Have a meeting with my course leader on Tuesday to discuss things but can't see me continuing on that course or at the University when I'm just gonna end up failing the year. Have started looking for full time jobs but there's no way I can get into the forensic field without some sort of qualification to my name. Probably gonna end up in some crappy 9-5 office job doing the same thing 365 days a year.

[kern]

dude,
never say never, i had a bloody awful (final year) first set, ok due to illness, but i was close to complete fail, in final yr. liaised with course leader, paced myself, got a 2:1.

what would be a waste is to throw in the towel at this stage. what are u failing on?

Kern

[qwerty]

dude,
never say never, i had a bloody awful (final year) first set, ok due to illness, but i was close to complete fail, in final yr. liaised with course leader, paced myself, got a 2:1.

what would be a waste is to throw in the towel at this stage. what are u failing on?

Kern

Unfortunately one of the exams I failed was the Principles of Computer Forensics (to make it even worse I failed the same exam last year) but that was due to the questions. I was really confident after the exam and was expecting a pretty good score and was rather upset when I was actually told my score. Although I failed the exam, I can still pass the module (I failed the module by 4 marks last year) however, I don't think I will pass a module I started in January (its very similar to a module that I've already failed) and that would leave me with two fails.

I know it would be a waste to throw the towel in now (and would probably regret it if I do/did as it's basically my only chance of making something of my life with a good job etc) but the risk of me failing the year is too big.

[Minesh]

Unfortunately one of the exams I failed was the Principles of Computer Forensics (to make it even worse I failed the same exam last year) but that was due to the questions. I was really confident after the exam and was expecting a pretty good score and was rather upset when I was actually told my score. Although I failed the exam, I can still pass the module (I failed the module by 4 marks last year) however, I don't think I will pass a module I started in January (its very similar to a module that I've already failed) and that would leave me with two fails.

I know it would be a waste to throw the towel in now (and would probably regret it if I do/did as it's basically my only chance of making something of my life with a good job etc) but the risk of me failing the year is too big.

querty,

If you were a practising forensic investigator, and you had a case which just didn't make sense to you; you knew you were missing, but just couldn't put your finger on it, what would you do?

Would you:
- Give up, do nothing, and let it go,
- Work harder, not give up until you had figured it out,
- Seek help from others who may possibly be able to help, and try your very best to work it out.

Same applies, but by choosing option 1 right now, you're likely to reduce your chances of getting in that position in the first place.... Persistency is the key... you fall off the horse, you get back on even stronger. :)

Kind Regards,

Minesh

[qwerty]

querty,

If you were a practising forensic investigator, and you had a case which just didn't make sense to you; you knew you were missing, but just couldn't put your finger on it, what would you do?

Would you:
- Give up, do nothing, and let it go,
- Work harder, not give up until you had figured it out,
- Seek help from others who may possibly be able to help, and try your very best to work it out.

Same applies, but by choosing option 1 right now, you're likely to reduce your chances of getting in that position in the first place.... Persistency is the key... you fall off the horse, you get back on even stronger. :)

Kind Regards,

Minesh

Believe me I've done nothing but ask the tutors for help this year but they can only help me in certain ways and it hasn't been enough as my results show. I can put hours and hours into a piece of work and don't get the reward at the end of it.

Maybe I can still get into the Computer Forensic industry but not on that course or that University. But at 22 I'm going to have to do something quick as I don't want to still be a student 3 years down the line.

[Disklabs]

qwerty,

Dont give up. Talk to the tutors. Ask them their opinion of your capabilities. If they reply that you are wasting your time, then fair enough. If however, its because you are not a natural academic, then perhaps they can teach you how to pass the exams? Its what most places do at the moment. If not, consider seeing if you can transfer your course to another Uni, that may be more suitable?

Just a couple of suggestions, but DONT GIVE UP. A couple of years sacrifice is nothing to the rest of your life thinking 'what if.....'

Simon

[qwerty]

Well withdrew from my course today. Talked things over with my course leader and the best solution was for me to leave today and gain a diploma in higher education. Obviously I would have preferred a degree as a diploma isn't quite as worthwhile but things were not going to go well between now and the end of the term. Feels like I've wasted 3 years too as its no exactly something I can walk into a job with. I've seen forensic jobs advertised but they both required a degree in either computer forensics or computer science. I probably wouldn't even get invited to an interview:(

From their website:

Any prospective candidate must have the following qualifications:

MSc or BSc in Computer Science or Computer Forensics
Hands on experience of General IT Technology
Awareness of Basic Digital Forensic Process
Full UK driving license
Unimpeachable integrity

Whilst I feel I okay on points 2,3 and 4, I'm not sure how someone can have unimpeachable integrity when they haven't had a forensic job before. I know what evidential integrity is - would this be enough? I would contact them but the last time I contacted them regarding a placement, they never replied.

With the rest of my student loan I may go on one of those training courses. Anyone got any recommendations?. I'm not sure whether to just forget about forensics and put the money on something else instead though.

[Minesh]

Well, I do hope you have made the right decision, and don't end up regretting it... i'm sure you've thought it through properly and done what you feel is right.

It's a shame though... how did you do in your first and second year?


With the rest of my student loan I may go on one of those training courses. Anyone got any recommendations?. I'm not sure whether to just forget about forensics and put the money on something else instead though.

Do let me know how you get on with your investigation into this - the feeling I get is that a degree (or masters obviously) is better towards finding a job, although most do also ask for EnCe and FTK. Wasn't sure what to do myself.

As for giving up on forensics totally - ask yourself what you really want to do in life. Maybe, if you feel that you want to give up on it totally, you don't want it enough.... just give it time and if you do decide that its not for you, i'm sure you will work out what is.

Best of Luck,

Minesh

Ps, Where's that job? Sounds familiar.

[qwerty]

The job is for a company called inta forensics.

[qwerty]

I'm in two minds as to if I've made the correct decision. There are both pros and cons

pros
I finish Uni
Can move on with my life

cons
I haven't achieved anything "respectable"
Not being able to go in the direction I wanted
Don't get to go travelling :(

[qwerty]

It's a shame though... how did you do in your first and second year?

First year was a struggle as I just couldn't get the hang of the Java programming. Second year was also a struggle and failed 2 modules (java was involved in one the those modules). I was close to quitting at the end of both years. Without checking, I think I was averaging about 45 for the two years which isn't particularly something to be proud of.

I just don't know how the foreign students manage it..... I'm British and have struggled since day one.

I wasn't aware of how hard computer forensics was to get into before I started. I didn't do any research on it and as the saying "Don't judge a book by its cover" goes, I chose the course on its name and description. Due to this I was sort of blind folded and was totally unprepared for what lay ahead.
Despite this, I've really enjoyed what I've learnt in relation to computer forensics and would love to work in the computer forensics industry and was hoping to end up working in somewhere like New Zealand or Australia. That can only remain a dream for now. However, the fact is computer forensics isn't easy and probably isn't for everyone as there is just so much to learn/know.

[kern]

Not that this helps your own cause Qwerty, just that i personally can empathise, as similar things happened on my own course many yrs ago.
Our foreign nationals, and many other students, got through by networking. Some got passes and distinctions in programming, not because they were competent; they weren't.They simply found a good team to be in, and hung on for grim death.

Is programming is so important, or is it a universities (Computer Depts) bread and butter pass to get any academic course off the ground?

I was told that (by one particular Uni) that a forensic computing masters degree candidate, for example, should have a level of software programming skill that they should be able to design and code their own Hex Editor.

Maybe Simon can come in on this one, but, afaics, if you went to court and needed to show evidence, which one would most likely be disputed:

Proven Industry Standard Software package(s) designed by dedicated teams of qualified Programmers, with trained operator,
or
Your own DIY software, designed and operated by You, a degree qualified person with a background in digital forensic investigation.

Maybe there should be an Industry standard for naming academic courses that must bear relation to what you will have a level of proficiency in upon exit, not the whims and fancy of a university trying to cobble together a suitably impressive sounding qualification.

Not wanting to contravene site regs by linking direct but
for a cynical look at the Quals scene, google "university of bums on seats" especially the Courses page

Kern

[qwerty]

Was thinking of writing a letter to a forensic company current looking for staff:

Dear Sir,

You may remember me writing to you last year when I was a University student looking for a placement. At the time you were unable to offer me one but informed me that I should contact you again once I have finished my studies. I have recently left University as things weren?t working out and have gained a diploma in higher education. Due to leaving University I am now looking for a job in the computer forensics industry and noticed that <company name> have positions available. I am wanting to know whether I would be wasting my time applying for a job at <company name> as I don?t have a BSc or MSc in computer forensics. I was thinking of going on a computer forensic training course to show employers that I do have the necessary skills and knowledge to succeed as a computer forensics analyst as I feel I will struggle to get a job otherwise.

Even if you can?t offer me a job, any advice you can offer me would be really appreciated.

Yours sincerely,


what you think? any advice on what I need to add or take out?

[kern]

qwerty,

you made a good start by just starting the letter. Maybe take out the bits with negative connotations though.

"i left because things weren't working out". how quickly would you want to leave the Company if things got tough?

"would i be wasting my time" . you believe your efforts are a waste of time ?

Perhaps just make a simple application and ask if there is a way into the company based upon starting as a trainee, to gain competence through hard work and practical application, rather than by academic study.

Do not lie if asked about your academic attempts. More, try to put a positive light on things by saying that you tried but found you learned better by hands on experience rather than academic study, and have chosen to try a different path into a field which you are still passionate about.

Don't write this sort of thing though just because it may sound good.
You have to mean what you say.
In general I'm saying try to keep a positive tone about it, and your prospects for the future.

K

[qwerty]

qwerty,

maybe take out the bits with negative connotations.

"i left because things weren't working out". how quickly would you want to leave the Company if things got tough?

"would i be wasting my time" . you believe your efforts are a waste of time ?

maybe make a simple application and ask if there is a way into the company based upon starting as a trainee, to gain competence through hard work and practical application, rather than by academic study.

Do not lie if asked about your academic attempts. More, try to put a positive light on things by saying that you tried but found you learned better by hands on experience rather than academic study, and have chosen to try a different path into a field which you are still passionate about.

Don't write this sort of thing though just because it may sound good.
You have to mean what you say.
In general I'm saying try to keep a positive tone about it, and your prospects for the future.

K

Ok thanks.

does anyone know if computer forensic training courses are for everyone or do they require some sort of prior experience? ie, already in the computer forensic industry.

[qwerty]

Wasn't sure where to put this about what about this for a covering letter?

Dear Madam,

In response to the advertised position on your company?s website, please consider my application in your search for a Trainee Computer & Mobile Phone Forensic Analyst team member.

I am currently working part-time as a waiter and barman at The Village Hotel, Newcastle and this means I have developed extensive experience with working with people and working in a team. I have worked there for 3 years. In this role I serve guests food and drink. I am expected to work with a smile on my face, answer any queries a guest may have, and wear a uniform on all working occasions.

My experiences of dealing with other people, my willingness to work, my time keeping, and my ability to work in a team makes me ideally suited to the role. My work experience also includes working at the Inland Revenue in the Data Registration department where it was essential that data was correctly inputted into the computer. Relocating to your location is not a problem and I also have a full UK passport and driving licence.

I studied Computer Forensics at University and have gained a HND. I would like to put into practice what I have previously leant and feel the position I?m applying for will give me the opportunity to do so. During my time studying computer forensics I was introduced to computer forensic software such as EnCase and FTK. My studies have also given my knowledge of the ACPO guidelines, evidential integrity, and evidential continuity.

Thank you for your time and consideration. I hope to have the opportunity to discuss this opening with you in person. I have enclosed my CV along with my application.

Yours sincerely,

[kern]

Groovy, your doing great, just a few tips, being as You asked...

Prioritise the order of things. Which is more important to the employer, your computer skills or your Waiting skills.

(this also goes for the CV. look up Tombstone format, and avoid it like the plague. First page should give them who you are and what You are good at. Not where You live, age, shoesize. Do something here that sets you out from the rest. Imagine trying to look for a partner on a dating site. How many lines do you read before you move to the next one of a hundred candidates.
In the Personal Interests / Hobbies, try to include something useful and that they can ask questions about. "I enjoy kicking back and having fun with my mates" simply doesn't cut it.

Maybe find a better way to say you work with a smile on your face :)
kids are expected to keep their room tidy, but they seldom do !

another simple tip is never to start a sentence with "I".
Finally spell check. there's a typo in your original. You find it =)

=========================

Dear Madam, (get the persons name you are writing to, much better ... shows You can research, have taken the time to be informed etc.)

In response to the advertised .......

Having recently gaining a HND in Computer Forensics at the University of ..., I would like ....

Alongside this I have held down a part time job in a Newcastle Hotel for the last 3yrs. This has helped me build up transferable personal skills, in a customer facing environment, such as close knit teamwork, presenting myself in a professional manner at all times and staying cool, cheerful and polite in the face of sometimes challenging situations.

Thank you for your time .....


Yours sincerely

(Sign this personally)

(letters:
Dear Sir/Madam - end with Yours faithfully
Dear Mrs Blenkinsop - end with Yours sincerely)

---------

finally finally , as i said before, mean what you write. If you are lucky enough to get an interview be prepared to back up with detail any statements you have made in your application. Never try to "wing it" you will be found out.
i.e having said you maintain a high standard of professional appearance, uniform etc, don't turn up windswept, sweating from the run from the train station with the demeanour of Wurzel Gummidge *8)

btw
Unimpeachable integrity means that should you be giving evidence in court, the defence can't come up with "Can You tell us about the time you were convicted of perjury/shoplifting/fraud/hacking Mr Investigator"
(checkout how many politicians have recently bit the dust over this one, paying siblings, fiddling expenses, being caught with prostitutes, or simply making a single irrational widely publicised statement, and so on)

maybe a years investigative work down the pan because you failed to disclose this. Very costly embarrassing career ending move.

sincere best wishes with Your applications :)

Kern

[Minesh]

I was going to post something about it, but seems kern beat me to it, and done a better job than I would have.:)

One thing's for sure - put your experience of computing higher up.

Good Luck,

Minesh

Ps, I too applied for that IntaForensics post, but as yet, not heard anything back... but you at least have a HND in CF which I don't. Seems there have been more opportunities already this year than there were in the whole of 2007... which is good news for us.

[qwerty]

I was going to post something about it, but seems kern beat me to it, and done a better job than I would have.:)

One thing's for sure - put your experience of computing higher up.

Good Luck,

Minesh

Ps, I too applied for that IntaForensics post, but as yet, not heard anything back... but you at least have a HND in CF which I don't. Seems there have been more opportunities already this year than there were in the whole of 2007... which is good news for us.
I'll fight you for it! haha. I would prefer the IntaForensics one to the Leicester one as that one is a junior position and training is given. Good luck to you too.

[qwerty]

Oh, and thanks for the help again Kern:)

[qwerty]

Finally spell check. there's a typo in your original. You find it =)

I can't spot it:( only thing I can think of is from the first line where I said In response to the advertised position on your company?s website .....

[Minesh]

A spell check won't find it - read it over and over until you find it.

If you still can't find it, check your fourth paragraph.

Minesh

[qwerty]

A spell check won't find it - read it over and over until you find it.

If you still can't find it, check your fourth paragraph.

Minesh

ah ha! thanks found it now:)

[kern]

minesh's comment re reading through, and not relying on spellcheck amused me as it bit a managing director in the backside once too.

In a management/production meeting, titters broke out as the topical handouts were read seconds in advance of the MD verbalising them.

part way down and something, for similar reasons, a spell checker would pass by was..

... both Neil and Kern will really need to **** if we are to meet the targets for this month.

:eek:

[Timmy_d]

Can i ask what ye think is the general opinion on the MSc in university of glamorgan,i was talking to someone the other day and they didnt really have anything good to say about it(saying the biggest thing you get to image on the course is a floppy disc,not a true reflection on the type of media you would usually work with)!I know they may not have the backing to be giving out HDDs to all students but would something like this go against you when going for jobs? Then again i have read very good things about glamorgan on this site so cant all be bad!Because i have applied to do this course i am now having second thoughts,cranfield is too expensive so wont be doing that,its make my mind up time and i was just looking for some opinions...Thanks in advance :)

[Timmy_d]

Anyone? :)

[qwerty]

Never studied there so can't comment on it. I do hear good things about it though and wish I had gone there instead of where I ended up.

[Disklabs]

Can i ask what ye think is the general opinion on the MSc in university of glamorgan,i was talking to someone the other day and they didnt really have anything good to say about it(saying the biggest thing you get to image on the course is a floppy disc,not a true reflection on the type of media you would usually work with)!I know they may not have the backing to be giving out HDDs to all students but would something like this go against you when going for jobs? Then again i have read very good things about glamorgan on this site so cant all be bad!Because i have applied to do this course i am now having second thoughts,cranfield is too expensive so wont be doing that,its make my mind up time and i was just looking for some opinions...Thanks in advance :)


Timmy_d

If you can afford it, go to Cranfield - it holds more respect that any of the other University's. If you cant, I will stress again that Glamorgan is excellant, (I'm not on commission!) and the new course at Birmingham City Uni is pretty good too.

Either way, good luck.

Simon

[Onintks]

Hello has anyone got any reviews n De montfort uni i.e the contents they teach.

Thank you

Thomas

[DeanMSouthworth]

Im currently studying my second year at UCLAN in Preston. The course so far is great the only problem i can see is that there is little to no forensic input in the first year but within the first couple of weeks of the second year i have already got to grips with the basics in FTK and EnCase.
Is there anyone else on these forums who has completed the course im doing? How did you find it?

p.s. JD is an ACE teachr.

[mole]

I've been doing a Masters in Computing through the OU and have gained my PGD. Was intending to do my dissertation this year, but work pressure has increased and I didn't feel comfortable starting it under the circumstances. So I've decided to do the course on forensics.

Some people look down their nose at the OU, seeing it as something that is not a "proper" university. I must admit that I had one course that I was a bit unhappy about, but other than that, the courses have been very good (this is my 9th). The Forensics course looks to be very interesting - a LOT of reading to do though. It's a new 6 months course; this is only the second presentation. The tutors all seem to be people that have worked / are working in the field.

I can't compare to other universities as I never went - but from my experience, I would suggest it is worth considering. You do need to be disciplined though - there are support mechanisms in place, although they are limited.

Anyway, that's my two pennorth.

[neontube]

Hi All,

I've been on here before harping on about the courses at derby, but they realy are good.
The Uni now offeres an under grad course in computer forensics as well as the masters course.
I'm currently doing the masters course part time, on the 2nd year of 3, and its broken down alowing me to do 2 lectures a week (either both evenings or as i do, one afternoon and the evening on the same day)

The course leader is great, and he is extreamly keen on getting outside parties involved with the course.
This year the Uni has been running a set of public lectures covering security and forensics which have been great.

Last night Simon from Disklabs came over for the evening and gave up a couple of hours to talk about phone forensics. Cheers Simon, i'm glad i came along. (p.s i'm the guy who had a chat with you about how small the world before the lecture)

Also what makes the 'derby uni' expereience great is the course leader wanting to find jobs for his students, Always forwarding on adverts and CVs between students and employers in the forensic field.

So all in all, a Big hand for Harj who runs the course
and another big thanks to Simon and Disklabs for there on going support at the Uni.